Hello fellow armchair treasure hunters. The following are twelve solutions for the casque locations. They include a worksheet and the ten solutions Turtle and I have developed for the remaining unfound casques. They also include the two solutions for the previously found casques in Chicago and Cleveland. These solutions are certainly not all new ideas. They are a combination of the information discovered by hunters in this forum and the solutions Turtle and I developed over the last two years. To reduce confusion, future posts specific to each location should probably be posted in their appropriate Verse and Painting threads. To help jump start those threads I will repeat each solution post in their own ongoing threads. These are just our opinions and current understanding. Although we have found a lot of solid information I am sure we have missed some things in our research and in communicating all this information. So, by all means add to the solutions and tweak the interpretations. I will continue to add information to the solutions as it becomes available. It would be great to meet some of you on a future dig if we get a chance. If you want some extra shovel labor Turtle and I would be glad to help if convenient. Right now, we have no plans to visit any of the casque locations. There are no casque locations very close to Tucson, Arizona. Turtle and I have met other treasure hunters in the past and it has always been a joy to meet and spend time with them. If you have a chance to meet other hunters, I recommend you take the opportunity. If we all plan the digs well, I bet we can get some great groups together. Let’s see if we can find a few casques this year! Good Hunting, Sonoran

San Francisco Image 1 Theme                            China Pearl                              June birthstone Clock                             6:00 for 6th month June Flower                            Rose is birth flower for June 37 and 38                        Latitudes 122 and 123                    Longitudes "G" and "h"                      Ghirardelli Chocolate sign Window with bars              Bars for Alcatraz Rocky Cliffs                      The "Rock" Alcatraz Island Clothing drape                 Shape of Golden Gate Park Face in rock                    John F. Kennedy Yin and Yang symbol         Asian theme Neckline                          Shape of a Torii Dragon                           Japanese theme and Dragon Hedge in Tea Garden Lake                              Shape of Japanese Tea Garden pond Table Leg                        Tea Garden Lanterns Moons                            10 on pagoda and 1 for "moon" bridge Hair part                          Golden Gate Bridge south shoreline Verse 7 At stone wall's door                 At jewel Japanese Tea Garden gate The air smells sweet                Cherry trees Not far away                          Within sight High posts are three                Sutro Tower Education and Justice              De Young Museum and Alcatraz For all to see                          Open to public. Within view. Sounds from the sky                Antenna tower building in garden Near ace is high                      Tower building is next to buiding with an "A" at the top Running north, but first across     Walk north and cross bridge In jewel's direction                   Direction to find jewel location Is an object                           Drum/ Moon bridge looks like a paddlewheel Of Twain's attention               Mark Twain was a steamboat pilot on the Mississippi River Giant pole                             Stone Pagoda Giant step                             Stone step most toward ("jewel's direction") bridge To the place                         The location to dig The casque is kept.                Casque is buried

Charleston Image 2 Theme                 Africa Diamond               April birthstone Clock                   4:00 for 4th month April Flower                 Daisy birthflower for April 32 and 33            Latitudes 79 and 80            Longitudes Pine tree branch Pine apple Charleston theme Pear                   Pine apple Charleston theme Skull forehead      Charleston map Skull eyes           Gun ports Between eyes        Washington obelisk Clock shape          Fort Sumter Clock eyes Clock mouth Clock stripes       Flag colors Lion head             Africa theme Woman                Slave Butterfly                Boone Hall Plantation butterfly In the wings         Cannons Verse 10 In the shadow                                           Within sight or range or nearby Of the grey giant                                       USS Yorktown Find the arm that                                       Cooper River bridge Extends over the slender path                      Cooper River In summer                                                 Shipping in Summer? Bay freezes? You'll often hear a whirring sound                  Ships Cars abound                                              Huge car import port Although the sign                                       Calhoun Monument plaque Nearby                                                     Nearby Speaks of Indies native                               Calhoun is a native The natives still speak                                Monument built to commemorate Of him of Hard word in 3 Vols.                      Calhoun words "Truth Justice and the Constitution" Take twice as many east steps as the hour      Two steps to east Or more                                                    Maybe 2.5 or 3? From the middle of one branch                     Middle of one "V" Of the v                                                   One of 4 "V"s of the "X" Look down                                               Look down And see simple roots                                  Grass In rhapsodic man's soil                               Treasure ground Or gaze north                                           North landmark Toward the isle of B.                                 Drum Island with named Bridge

Kill Devil Hills Image 3 Theme                England Garnet               January birthstone Watch               1:00 for first month January Flower               Carnation birthflower for January 35 and 36         Latitudes 75 and 76         Longitudes Keys Bells Spoon with pea Helmet with horns Kill Devil Hills Window Bubbles              Flight Imp                   Flying object, stepped off ledge Patch Light                 Lighthouse light Water               Breakwater Cross                Memorial Park Circles on chest   Instrument guages or? Sheet metal        Airplane skin Rivets                Airplane sheet metal work Nose Eyes Suit of armor       English theme Verse 5 Lane Two twenty two                   First Flight Airport You'll see an arc of lights               Beacon on top of Monument Weight and roots extended             Monument and plants Together saved the site                 Preservation plan Of granite walls                            Monument construction Wind swept halls                           Wing shape of monument Citadel in the night                         Base of monument A wingless bird ascended                Wright Flyer Born of ancient dreams of flight       Airplane invented Beneath the only standing member   Monument Of a forest                                   Whole area To the south                                Monument to the south White stone closest                      First Flight Commemoration Boulder At twelve paces                           Twelve steps From the west side                        Head West Get permission                             National Park To dig out.                                  Casque

Worksheet

Cleveland Image 4 Theme                Greece Aquamarine          March birthstone Triangle               3 sides for 3rd month March Flower                Daffodil birthflower for March 41 and 42          Latitudes 81                     Longitude Columns              Found at dig site Helmet Goblet Sphere Tree base Face relief Half urn Bell Verse 4 Beneath two countries As the road curves In a rectangular plot Beneath the tenth stone From right to left Beneath the ninth row from the top Of the wall including small bricks Seven steps up you can hop From the bottom level Socrates, Pindar, Apelles Free speech, couplet, birch To find casque's destination Seek the columns For the search.

Chicago Image 5 Theme               Ireland Emerald              May birthstone Warts                5 warts for 5th month May Flower               Lily of the Valley birthflower for May 41 and 42          Latitudes 87                    Longitude Indian on horse Fence post        Found at dig site Windmill              Chicago "Windy City" Fairy Right earring Left disk Pulleys Verse 12 Where M and B are set in stone And to Congress, R is known L sits and left Beyond his shoulder Is the Fair Folks' Treasure holder The end of ten by thirteen Is your clue Fence and fixture Central too For finding jewel casque Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush.

Tampa Image 6 Theme                Spain Sapphire             September birthstone Aters                 9 aters for 9th month September Flower               Aster birthflower for September 28                     Latitude 83                     Longitude Flag standard Conquistador       Spanish theme Turtle                Tampa and Florida Rock                  Indian Rocks Palm Tree           Palm Harbor Water                Clearwater Greyhound          Tampa and Florida Steps Verse 9 The first chapter                      Entrance Written in water                       Inlet or bay Near men                                Sailors With wind rose                         Explorers Behind bending branches            Gumbo Limbo Tree And a green picket fence           Fence of trees At the base of a tall tree            Flagpole You can still hear the honking       Near traffic or parking Shell, limestone, silver, salt         Flagpole and base Stars move by day                    US Flag Sails pass by night                    Waterway nearby Even in darkness                       When dark Like moonlight in teardrops          Boat and ship lights Over the tall grass                     Rising over grass Years pass, rain falls.                 Erosion of Tabby House

New Orleans Image 7 Theme                 France Turquoise             December birthstone Grandfather clock 12:00 for 12th month December Flower                 Narcissus birthflower for December 29                      Latitude 90 and 91            Longitudes Mask                   Mardi Gras reference Clock shadows     Sundial reference Clock top arches   Stone Bridge in City Park next to site Checkers              Strong Chess history in New Orleans Horse                   Many streets decorated with horse posts Flying boy           Peter Pan and Story Land reference Clock second hand On three for "Only three stand watch" Hand Sleeve Verse 2 At the place where jewels abound The 18' sundial. Reference is to another timekeeper, a jeweled watch or clock. Fifteen rows down to the ground   15 hashes counter clockwise from between the “2” and “1” to the bottom In the middle of twenty-one           The “1” and “2” seen upside-down (from top) From end to end                           From “6” to “6” on sundial. Only three stand watch                 The number 3. There is only one 3 on the watch. There are two 21 combinations on the sundial. We are to dig at the one next to the “three”. As the sound of friends                 Children playing. Fills the afternoon hours                The playground to the west. Here is a sovereign people              French? Who build palaces to shelter           Casino Their heads for a night!                 "July 11, 1913 Casino building is opened offering refreshments. The name means a small 'casa' used for enjoyable activities later becomes commonly used to refer to gambling establishments." Gnomes admire                             Storyland Fays delight                                 Storyland The namesakes meeting                 Storyland to the northwest. Near this site.                              Clock

Houston Image 8 Theme                         Arabia Ruby                           July birthstone Columns                       7 columns for 7th month July Flower                         Larkspur birth flower for July 29 and 30                     Latitudes 95 and 96                     Longitudes Sphere on pole              Golf Course reference Camel                           Zoo reference Rhinoceros head             Zoo reference Sand Dunes                   Arabia theme Ramp Water spout                 Fountain in park Brick pavestone Railroad track symbol     Tracks in park Curved lines in brick       More train track references Verse 1 Fortress north                              Downtown Houston Cold as glass                               Houston skyscrapers Friendship south                           Texas Medical Center Take your task                             Walk to To the number Nine eight two                             Locomotive Through the wood                         Continue through park No lion fears                                 Zoo In the sky the water veers             Brays Bayou from above Small of scale                               Dick Dowling Monument Step across                                 Cross street Perspective should not be lost        Larger to smaller monument In the center of four alike               Four equal sides of Pioneer Memorial Small, split,                                  Small island splitting streets Three winged and slight                  Three islands What we take to be Our strongest tower of delight         Pioneer Memorial Falls gently                                   Dick Dowling Monument In December night                           White in color Looking back from treasure ground     Backside of Dowling There's the spout!                           Water fountain A whistle sounds.                            Train

Montreal Image 9 Theme                     Dutch Opal                        October birthstone Roman numeral X      X for 10th month October Flower                    Calendula birth flower for October 46                          Latitude 74                           Longitude Hat                         Shape of Olympic Stadium Steps on neckline       Olympic Podium Leg eater                  Montreal landmark Fountain silhouette     Botanical Gardens fountain Verse 3 If Thucydides is                 Greek from the first Olympiads time North of Xenophon              Greek from the first Olympiads time Take five steps                  Five Olympic Rings In the area of his direction   Ground area and Greeks Olympic in time A green tower of lights        Green stadium top In the middle section           Is in middle Near those                       Subway station entrance Who pass the coliseum       Subway route by stadium With metal walls                 Subway car Face the water                  Face the Olympic pool venue Your back to the stairs      Olympic podium Feel at home                    Gold medal position All the letters                   Flags of nations ("Letter of the country") Are here to see                 Displayed nearby Eighteenth day                 July 18, 1976 The Olympic sport competitions begin Twelfth hour                    Final hour Lit by lamplight                 Olympic torch In truth, be free.               Recover casque

Salt Lake City Image 11 Theme                 Italy Peridot                 August birthstone Globe gold squares 8 gold squares for 8th month August Flower                 Gladiolus birthflower for August 41                       Latitudes 112                     Longitudes Two and four        2nd and 4th Aves. Large vine            Spells SLC in one length Tables Bird Perch Bubbles Globe Spheres Window               Temple window Box                     The Temple Fairy                    Fountain at City County Building Verse 11 Pass two friends of octave           Hyrum and Joseph Smith In December                              Passed on Ride the man of oz                      Lions at Josph Smith building To the land near the window         Sidewalk at buildings There's a road that leads to          Sidwalk to left Dark forest                                Building with many columns Where white is in color                Columns are white With two maps                           World maps on building After circle and square In July and August                      Hot months A path beckons                          Path in trees and water To mica and driftwood                 Rock and wood? Under that                                Flag Pole Which may be last touched          Flag before raised Or first seen standing                 Flag hoisted Look north at the wing                North side of flag toward Korean War Memorial bird And dig                                    Dig To achieve                               To recover By dauntless and inconquerable      Flag Determination                            Flag Your goal.                                 Recover casque

New York City Image 12 Theme                        Russia Topaz                          November bithstone Clock                          11:00 for 11th month November Flower                        Chrysanthemum birthflower for November 41                              Latitude 74                              Longitude Bird                           Head resembles Chrysler Building Gargoyle Left rectangle pillar      Twin tower or skyscraper Water droplets             Three islands around Manhattan Woman's face              Statue of liberty face Robe face                   George Washington Square clock               Times square? Onion domes               Russian theme Water                         Large fountain Arched windows            Judson Memorial Church stained glass windows Robe bottom                Manhattan shoreline Verse 6 Of all the romance retold               Opera and drama Men of tales and tunes                  Actors Cruel and bold                              Drama Seen here                                  Astor Place Opera House By eyes of old                             In the past Stand and listen to the birds           Park Hear the cool, clear song of water   Park fountain Harken to the words:                    Old English language reference Freedom at the birth of a century   Washington Arch Or May 1914                              Womans Suffrage march Edwin and Edwina named after him Edwin Forrest Or on the eighth a scene               Eight Street Astor Place Riot Where law defended                     7th Regiment and local police Between two arms extended           Outside columns Below the bar that binds                Below the bar between the columns Beside the long palm's shadow        Tall center column Embedded in the sand                   Buried Waits the Fair remuneration            Recover the casque White house close at hand.            Judson Memorial Church

Millwaukee Image 10 Theme               Germany Amethyst           February birthstone Red balls            2 balls for 2nd month February Flower               Primrose birthflower for February Millstone            Rebus part 1 "mill" Walking stick     Rebus part 2 "walk" Key                   Rebus part 3 "key" Building              Milwaukee City Hall Cape                 tree trunks Collar pattern Verse 8 View the three stories of Mitchell      Mitchell Hall As you walk the beating of the world Kenwood At a distance in time                        In the past from now From three who lived there               Three streets At a distance in space From woman, with harpsichord           Marietta Silently playing Step on nature                              Lake Park Cast in copper                                Lincoln Ascend the 92 steps                       Staircase After climbing the grand 200            Staircase Pass the compass and reach            Go past North Point Lighhouse The foot of the culvert Below the bridge                            Start place Walk 100 paces                             From bridge to street Southeast over rock and soil            Dirt trail down ravine To the first young birch                  First tree Pass three, staying west               Three trees You'll see a letter from the country  "G" for Girl Scout trail Of wonderstone's hearth               Germany On a proud, tall fifth                     Largest tree of five At its southern foot                      South side The treasure awaits                     Dig here

(scratches head) why are we creating extra threads again when this info could be put in the appropriate threads? you also claim to have now solved all puzzles but only list eleven sites. of those listed, absent is Boston  (which seems solid) and St. Louis  (which was confirmed by BP)  .    you have included SLC which seems very suspect to say the least. the only way to convince me on these is by finding a treasure. disclaimer_ i apologize if i offended fellow hunters.

fox wrote:: (scratches head) why are we creating extra threads again when this info could be put in the appropriate threads? you also claim to have now solved all puzzles but only list eleven sites. of those listed, absent is Boston   (which seems solid) and St. Louis   (which was confirmed by BP)  .    you have included SLC which seems very suspect to say the least. the only way to convince me on these is by finding a treasure. disclaimer_ i apologize if i offended fellow hunters. I agree Fox. I don't like seeing repetitive threads. They usually just add confusion to the forum. I forgot to mention that I will repeat these posts in each of their their proper threads. I will start that process now. In placing the worksheet and solutions in one thread I was hoping to show the common method of finding solutions to the casque locations. I did post 12 locations. I know St. Louis and Boston are current favorites. But I am pretty confident that once you understand the SLC and Montreal solutions you will see why they are good and true solves. No offence taken here. I suspected this could be a difficult process.

I would be more convinced if you can show us pictures to back up all these assertions.  The images for those that have solves are so very clear as to be undeniable.  Also, some of your solves seem a little vague, i.e. "If Th. is North of X." are simply dismissed as "ancient Greeks".  That is confusing for several reasons -- 1) there was the Cleveland Greek Cultural Garden already, so why more Greeks?  2) Why be so specific about the Greeks, including their relative locations to each other if you are really just saying, "Greeks here?" I do appluad the attempt, as well as the summary of the general way to solve these puzzles.  However, the specifics, sans photographs, is too much to accept right now.

Agreed rihel, you guys deserve pictures. This is a long process and we do have a lot of pictures to share. I expect to start sharing the pictures later this week. If you want to jump ahead, most of the pictures we found easily on either Flickr or Google image searches. As far as discussion on the Verse I think it would be best to move that to the proper thread.

one good point to notice is that Sonoran and turtle have given very percise location (spots) to put the shovel and dig to find the casque. I don't believe anyone else has been as precise in thier answers, most that I have seen is that it is said to be in a certian park like city park in new orleans , this is a big place to dig ,not a percise place like the solutions. this should justify a trip out to dig up a c asque. happy hunting

Yeah, the precision is interesting.  Intrigued, to be sure.  I tried to look up some photos, but I didn't see anything convincing.  For example, the Montreal Stadium and image 9.... I just don't see it, especially since the Montreal Stadium has such a distinctive look to it.  Even ignoring that part, I don't see it.

I take great issue with this Salt Lake City thing. First of all, WHY are the Smith brothers "friends of octave" when it is crystal clear that the Wright Brothers WERE friends of Octave Chanute? (this verse has been paired with the suite of armor image.) Also, you've got nothing for the following: Bird, perch, Globe--when there is a "Black Falcon" pier and avenue in Boston, their subway system is called the T, (the perch is a T) and their newspaper is The Boston Globe--these seem pretty solid to me.  In fact, the only real identifier you have is the round window, and there are thousands of those all over the country.  Also, the box castle looks NOTHING like the SLC temple. I don't know about anyone else, and this is not to say your work isn't thorough, but I'm not buying a lot of it. I hope this doesn't offend, but I think we're onto something with the Boston solve, and the locations you've listed aren't all that precise.

Unknown: With no examples of misleading clues found in the paintings or verses we can safely assume that everything is important. Otherwise, why add it to the hunt? Every word and every image likely has a purpose. I applaud all of the thought and work that went into this. You guys are true treasure hunters.  But...You guys dig up the one in NY and I'll take a buddy up on his offer and let him fly me down to NC in his twin engine (I'll be in diapers of course) and dig up that one too. If your solutions are correct, and there is only one way to find out, then there are some very misleading clues in the verses and paintings. Octave in December is a big misleading phrase.  As well as By dauntless and inconquerable determination .  And if the slender path isn't the Narrows Inlet, then I'll just stick to playing Hangman with the kids the rest of my life. Just kidding.  If you are indeed correct, I would certainly help finish this off and unearth them all.  How extraordinary it would be for you guys to have solved the Secret Formula.

Thanks for your support and open minded approach. I have always appreciated that about you. I know you may not understand all the solutions yet, but if you look into these solutions, Boogie, you will find a lot rings true. And, you are are not getting out of the New York location that easy. We have plans for you!

St Louis is not merely a favorite, I believe it was confirmed by BP

Sonoran-- you are reliving an old nightmare, namely, the "Red Herrings;"  Amiguity is there, and will lead you very much astray. =

Unknown: The term pareidolia (pronounced /pæraɪˈdoʊliə/), referenced in 1994 by Steven Goldstein,[1] describes a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant. Common examples include images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon, and hidden messages on records played in reverse. The word comes from the Greek para- — beside, with or alongside — and eidolon — image (the diminutive of eidos — image, form, shape). Pareidolia is a type of apophenia. Unknown: Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data. The term was coined in 1958 by Klaus Conrad, who defined it as the "unmotivated seeing of connections" accompanied by a "specific experience of an abnormal meaningfulness". From wikipedia: I can't imagine what prompted me to post this here, or why it reminded me of myself and this forum in general...

Look, I'm not here to throw rocks at someone's hard work.  This table is cool, it's nice to see things laid out. Frankly, my ONLY objection is the probability numbers.  But hey, it's your spare time... In the Verse 1 / Image 8 section, which of course is close to my heart, there's glaring errors.  The Cockrell Exhibit wasn't established until the 90's, the fountains around the Pioneer Memorial are recent, and many of the sitings posted in the image 8 thread were not there in 1982.  That would make my estimation of the probability of the casque being the noted location as less than 10%. It's hard to decode Preiss's clues by doing internet searches 25 years later.  We have found many of the clues to be "local":  you have to be there to recognize them.  I have no issue with posting one's thoughts, as it can lead to further discussion and revelations.  But to indicate that there is a 90-100% probability, when there are errors in the thought process, is a bit, well, I don't know, you fill in the word... wilhouse

This is mislabled - it ought to be "mostly not solutions"

I’m going to share a couple items that may help move this hunt forward. The first is an explanation of why I think we have bogged down in this hunt. The second item is some progress on one of the locations. When Turtle123456 and I joined this forum last year we read through most of the posts in “The Secret” section. We appreciated how well everyone worked together to share, discuss, and advance ideas. That team environment is a major reason we joined this forum. Unfortunately, that team environment has been missing lately. When we joined this forum last year we knew we were approaching a breakthrough. We wanted to work on that breakthrough and future progressions with this forum. But due to the poor reception to our ideas that team scenario I envisioned never happened. Over the past year I posted a series of solutions and recently, the group of ten solutions. There has been almost no effort from forum members to investigate, advance, or even give attention to many of these ideas. Instead of a collaborative effort to prove out ideas, we received competing ideas and reasons why our solution progression didn’t fit their previously established solutions. Unfortunately, many forum members have settled into their favorite solutions and are not open to new ideas. I suspect if we had posted the solutions a couple years ago we would have received a much more open minded consideration of our ideas. It seems this forum has lost the perspective needed for a proper approach to solutions. There are two circumstances that likely allowed this lost perspective. First, not all the latitudes and longitudes being used by this forum are correct. There are three sets of coordinates that are incorrect. They include the coordinates from Paintings 6, 9, and 11. These paintings are currently popular matches to St. Augustine, St. Louis, and Boston. Early on in our work, Turtle and I had trouble with these same three sets of coordinates. But over time, and with some trial and error, we were able to match them to their proper locations. The second and most important circumstance is that five of the ten remaining unfound casque locations have incorrect painting and verse matches. Incorrect matches can be expected when you are trying to match 12 paintings to 12 verses. The problem though, was when the forum created and advanced solutions with those bad matches and then stubbornly stuck to those bad solutions without seriously considering other possible matches and solutions. When solutions are developed using wrong matches it becomes necessary to use irregular and creative approaches to make ground. This results in a forced solution. Turtle and I have encountered this creative forcing a few times. In one example Turtle started working out a match of Verse 6 to Salt Lake City. After a while he developed a convincing solution to a park in SLC. But something didn’t ring true to me, including no final spot to dig. So I started researching Verse 6 and eventually made enough progress to nail it down to New York City. The funny part was that even though Turtle admitted I definitely found the proper match, it took him weeks to let go of his Salt Lake City solution. One point we all could take from that experience is if we don’t have a final dig spot after a continued effort we may need to rethink our solution. Turtle and I have had to rethink our solutions many times. Another point we can take from that experience is that we need to be open to new ideas. Turtle was so convinced of his solution that he had trouble accepting any new and good ideas. So, I can see how there can be resistance to new ideas. I can also see how there can be resistance to the belief that there are common ingredients in a solution process. Unfortunately, the forum’s mismatching has allowed only a couple of good solutions to develop and thus had few chances to develop common ingredients. By the time the good ideas were mixed in with the wrong ideas there was little consistency left for this forum to trust any method, let alone believe that a consistent method existed . One of the important things that helped Turtle and I develop an approach to the solutions is we had a few more solutions to work from. Turtle figured out the San Francisco solution a couple years ago. We then finished the New York solution after joining this forum last year. Later, we made it most of the way through the Salt Lake City solution. With these additional solutions in hand we gained confidence an insight in the method needed to reach the correct solutions. We were then able to step back and develop a comprehensive approach for the remaining casque locations. Most importantly , we were finally able to make the correct verse to painting matches. Once we correctly matched the last six locations, the solutions fell together easily and in a very short amount of time (about 3 to 4 days each). No forcing was ever needed. We all were making this hunt much more complicated than I think Preiss ever intended. As I stated before, the ten solutions I posted were mostly complete, but they needed more work. We were hoping that the forum would help polish and fine tune those unfinished areas. Since the solutions I posted in March are not getting much traction Turtle and I wondered if the only way to finally break those death grips on wrong solutions and help get this forum back on track was to go recover one of the casques. Forum members should not have to go recover a casque to get respect for their ideas. One of the most unfortunate comments I see posted in this forum is “Until a casque is found one idea is as good as another.” I don’t think we have to see a casque coming out of the ground to be sure we are onto something. When a member does bring up a new idea I often see them beat down because it doesn’t fit the preconceptions of many of the members. We all would be much farther along and likely pulling casques out of the ground this year if we worked together to explore the solutions we posted instead of counter pointing and nitpicking. What happened to that collaborative effort? Probably the most important information Turtle and I have shared when I posted The Solutions is the proper matching of the paintings and verses. It can be a complicated affair keeping track of 12 paintings and 12 verses. Although I shared a lot of information in the posting of the solutions I didn’t explain what they all mean. I apologize for that. Let me try to rectify that now. The five locations that needed to be fixed in their verse to painting matches are Charleston, Kill Devil Hills, Montreal, New York City, and Salt Lake City. The proper matching for all locations should be: Location   Painting Verse San Francisco   1     7 Charleston   2    10 Kill Devil Hills   3     5 Cleveland     4   4 Chicago       5   12 Tampa         6   9 New Orleans     7   2 Houston         8   1 Montreal         9     3 Milwaukee   10   8 Salt Lake City 11   11 New York City 12     6 If you are still lacking confidence in the solutions we posted, let me share some thoughts that may help. • Turtle and I spent a lot of time putting The Formula post together so that everyone could understand how we solved the solutions and continue the effort themselves. A thorough understanding of this formula should get you up to speed. Nothing earth-shattering there but it does differ from some popular approaches currently used in this forum, including too much emphasis on literary references and literal interpretations. Following The Formula’s order of steps was imperative, especially the coordinate and matching steps. • For the most part, the solutions we posted in March have final dig spots. Those dig spots have been reached by using the same consistent formula approach for all the verses. Not many solutions posted in this forum tell you where to dig, let alone ten places to dig! This is a key point. • Almost every line in the verses can be accounted for and fit a pattern in our solutions. This is also an important point. The second thing I wanted to share is that Turtle and I have recently made exciting progress narrowing the Florida solution down to an exact dig spot. The Florida solution was probably the solution that needed the most work out of the ten we posted. It had many unanswered questioins. Turtle and I spent some time recently focusing on this verse. I will share that progress in the next few days. We have a good group of problem solvers in this forum and there is still a good amount of research to do with these solutions. It would be great to see this forum moving forward again. I hope you all get a chance to recover one of the remaining casques. Due to constraints Turtle and I probably won’t have time to go for one of the casques this year. But next year looks much better. Good hunting, Sonoran

To each, his own.

Unknown: We all would be much farther along and likely pulling casques out of the ground this year if we worked together to explore the solutions we posted instead of counter pointing and nitpicking. I'm sorry if you don't think of this forum as collaborative, but in my book collaboration is not synonymous with unthinking agreement. If I think someone is onto something that may lead somewhere, I express praise and pursue it, then report back anything I find. Like shecrab's recent idea about Cartier ("Hard word"). I think that's a great idea, and it doesn't fit into my own theories at all. I went online for awhile looking up stuff that came from that idea. That is collaboration. I think what you're really objecting to is that people don't seem to agree with *your* ideas quite as often as you'd like. Actually I just love it when people post new ideas, because ultimately that's what will lead to solutions. But if I don't see a logical way to move forward given that new information... what am I supposed to do? I guess I see counterpointing and nitpicking as essential to the process. We would all be swimming in an ocean of unexamined ideas, going nowhere, if it weren't for that. You simply have to shave away the ideas that aren't going anywhere if you plan to identify the ideas that are worth deeper study.

Trohn wrote:: To each, his own. Perfect example Trohn. Unfortunately, I think that is the closed minded culture that Sonoran is talking about. He has given us ten possible places to dig and you can’t even take the time to investigate them. Instead he receives unconstructive remarks like that.

Sonoran - this forum has gotten pretty big. Can you suggest one or two of your solutions (by date and thread) that we should reexamine? I, for one, would be happy to take a closer look and will try to be constructive.

forest_blight wrote:: I'm sorry if you don't think of this forum as collaborative, but in my book collaboration is not synonymous with unthinking agreement. If I think someone is onto something that may lead somewhere, I express praise and pursue it, then report back anything I find. Like shecrab's recent idea about Cartier ("Hard word"). I think that's a great idea, and it doesn't fit into my own theories at all. I went online for awhile looking up stuff that came from that idea. That is collaboration. forest_blight wrote:: I think what you're really objecting to is that people don't seem to agree with *your* ideas quite as often as you'd like. Actually I just love it when people post new ideas, because ultimately that's what will lead to solutions. But if I don't see a logical way to move forward given that new information... what am I supposed to do? forest_blight wrote:: I guess I see counterpointing and nitpicking as essential to the process. We would all be swimming in an ocean of unexamined ideas, going nowhere, if it weren't for that. You simply have to shave away the ideas that aren't going anywhere if you plan to identify the ideas that are worth deeper study. When did you collaborate on the solutions I posted? This is probably the answer to my first question. You seem to believe that I want people to agree with my ideas. I too like disagreement. That is how we move forward. You missed my point. I am trying to share different matching and solutions, that just may have have merit. If you are honestly looking for something to do, you can explore the matches and solutions we have posted. That would be a good start. Actually, as I stated earlier, what we are often seeing is people objecting to us not agreeing with their extablished ideas. You missed my point again here. By counter pointing I am referring to the rebuttals that use whole other solutions against the current discussion. Instead, what would help the process is counter pointing the specifics of the verse and picture. We haven’t had much of that.

forest_blight wrote:: Sonoran - this forum has gotten pretty big. Can you suggest one or two of your solutions (by date and thread) that we should reexamine? I, for one, would be happy to take a closer look and will try to be constructive. That's funny. I was just talking to Turtle and he said the same thing, sorta. He said that we have likely overwhelmed the forum by posting so much information at once. Information that may not have been organized that well. How about I get Florida posted first over the next couple of days. Then I will look for another solution to expound on.

Sonoran, I see that you have paired image 9 (Montreal) with verse 3 (Thucydides is North of Xenophon). Can you explain your reasoning here?  I re-read the original explanation, but could not see how Thucydides and Xenophon fit Montreal specifically. Thanks, AP

I think the group dynamics of this board is great! I cant believe how much people share and work together, even when the jewels were available people were willing to throw out ideas and share thoughts aiming at the common goal. now that it really is just a quest to find the casque locations, I think the cooperation is even more pronounced. I really like the give and take of ideas, put something out there and see if it can stand up to the critical review of one's peers.  If it cant try another idea, if it can maybe we are one step closer to another casque. I think very few ideas that come out on this board however farfetched aren't worth thinking about. One thing I do see as time wasting is when someone comes out and says "Here is the solution..." and Sonoran and Turtle#### do that alot. Then they point at their "solutions" as  fait acompli... Lets take a look at one of their solutions that resolves to a particular dig spot... I will pick the one I am the most familiar with... They suggest San Francisco's casque is in the middle of The japanese tea garden in their resolution of the verse, they point to alcatraz (which is not near the japanese tea garden) they suggest the stone wall's door refers to a wooden fence... they suggest the mark twain reference is to a bridge that really doesnt even slightly resemble a paddle wheel.They ignore the fact that the theme of the painting is chinese and the the garden is japanese... They suggest BP broke and entered a private garden to bury the casque. (the tea garden is fenced and locked at night and has been since the early 40's) If they are correct then go dig it up, I suggest since they cant get permission, they do what they are suggesting BP did, and break in in the middle of the night. With an entire city park surrounding the tea garden to bury a casque in - I cant really imagine BP committed a felony and expects casque hunters to do the same.... When I read their solution a while back I disregarded it almost immediately and after further review I find it even more unlikely, and that tends to color my opinion of their other "solutions" When someone says Here is the exact solution! and they dont have a casque, I have to wonder are they trying to mislead people on purpose or are they just kidding themselves.

we do not live close to any of the casque, so we decided to share our info. some  of the points may not be clear but each has a place to put the shovel and dig. our hope is that someone close to the site will go and retrive it. remember that this is a riddle of bp and you need to get inside his mind for the answers

my problem isn't with your analysis or ideas, all of which are valid until proven right/wrong by the finding of a casque. I think the presentation as solved solutions is a bit presumptuous, and detracts from the overall consideration of your ideas. I think your SF solution is way way off. I am not "married" to my pet idea. I'm fairly sure I resolved the SF location and it has been destroyed by a ditch digging machine. But without a casque to prove my theory, I am the first to admit it is only a theory and I continue looking using alternate verses, 6 instead of 7 for example and I find parts of 6 fit also... To say you have a solution without a casque is defeating and you run the danger of discouraging someone from working with a verse you have erroneously translated or reserved for another site...

Gossamer wrote:: Perfect example Trohn. Unfortunately, I think that is the closed minded culture that Sonoran is talking about. He has given us ten possible places to dig and you can’t even take the time to investigate them. Instead he receives unconstructive remarks like that. I'll get slammed for not agreeing with his ideas I'll get slammed for reiterating the thoughts that have existed and not more fully explored. If the ideas are worthwild, I would recommend Sonoran to get off his couch and put a shovel into the earth. I take offense that he slams the whole process because he feels like he came late to the party. Its a big world - big enough for everyone here to dig many holes - some will be productive, most will not be. Among the active members of this fraternity, I can safely say I have been one of the people that has been routinely disagreed with the most - SO WHAT! Again, 'To each, his own' I will not dig in someone else's hole - go ahead and become famous.

Trohn wrote:: Among the active members of this fraternity, I can safely say I have been one of the people that has been routinely disagreed with the most - SO WHAT! turtle123456 wrote:: our hope is that someone close to the site will go and retrive it. remember that this is a riddle of bp and you need to get inside his mind for the answers Sonoran wrote:: I’m going to share a couple items that may help move this hunt forward. The first is an explanation of why I think we have bogged down in this hunt. . . . Really?  You think so?  Or are you just horsing around? I think it is wording like that that most are talking about.  "...will go and retrive it."  Not, go and check it out...but...go and GET it. You are doing just what you say is wrong with the boards.  You are saying everything we have done is wrong and you have solved every one of the riddles with exact locations to dig...not possible solutions...THE solutions. You guys keep complaining about the collaboration of the group yet everything you say is "I I I Me Me Me We We We".  For example: This whole post reads like a teacher explaining to her kindergarten class why 1 and 1 dont make 3.  The teacher is always right. What happens if (not when, just if) one of your theories is wrong or mismatched?  Some of your matchings are intriguing, but, I have the same issue with one of them that I had with poor Shecrab :  You have the Wright Brother's location of Kill Devil Hill as a possible location, yet you do not match the logical V with it.  Only V11 references the WB.  And this V seems to reference it not once but twice. The "two friends of octave" could very well be referring to the brothers themselves and "By dauntless and inconquerable" is almost word for word from their Memorial.  Yes, I did say "almost" word for word but it sure is close enough for me (given the other connections) to be more than coincidental.  V5 talks of flight, yes, but where in there does it reference the WB's themselves.  The history of flight covers a lot more than O and W Wright. There, I guess I have said my word.  I am sure I am one of those referred to ("Unfortunately, many forum members have settled into their favorite solutions and are not open to new ideas.") and was expected to respond.  I, like MaltedFalcon, do not have my "pet" ideas...I just like to continue to pursue those ideas which really fit to an end.  The most "solid" P we have is right now is Milwaukee's P10 since it has an actual building in it (or possibly P2 with the Charleston map).  And I really like the V8 pairing with P10.  But, do you think I am about ready to scrap those since we have yet to unearth the casque?  No way.  We can't simply "move on" to other possible ideas because a casque wasn't found...especially with this pairing which to me is almost Concrete.  Sure, other pairings are less solid and may warrant other ideas but to use the excuse of "We haven't found a casque yet so lets move on" is just ridiculous.

Sonoran wrote:: One of the important things that helped Turtle and I develop an approach to the solutions is we had a few more solutions to work from. Turtle figured out the San Francisco solution a couple years ago. We then finished the New York solution after joining this forum last year. I bet that if you told MaltedFalcon EXACTLY where to dig in San Francisco and Boogieman EXACTLY where to dig in New York, they would be happy to dig. Just a thought...

i that case then who would like to dig up new york or kitty hawk, this is just a start

I think we'd all like to, but first you need to tell us precisely where you think they are. Perhaps folks will agree with your theory, and perhaps others will try to convince you that you are wrong. That's the way it goes, but it would be nice if you could lay it all out to be evaluated and hashed over first.

all you have to do is look at the solution at the begining of this post

Sonoran wrote:: Kill Devil Hills Image 3 Theme                  England Garnet                  January birthstone Watch                  1:00 for first month January Flower                Carnation birthflower for January 35 and 36            Latitudes 75 and 76            Longitudes Keys Bells Spoon with pea Helmet with horns  Kill Devil Hills Window Bubbles                Flight Imp                      Flying object, stepped off ledge Patch Light                    Lighthouse light Water                  Breakwater Cross                  Memorial Park Circles on chest    Instrument guages or? Sheet metal          Airplane skin Rivets                  Airplane sheet metal work Nose Eyes Suit of armor        English theme Verse 5 Lane Two twenty two                    First Flight Airport You'll see an arc of lights                Beacon on top of Monument Weight and roots extended              Monument and plants Together saved the site                  Preservation plan Of granite walls                              Monument construction Wind swept halls                            Wing shape of monument Citadel in the night                          Base of monument A wingless bird ascended                  Wright Flyer Born of ancient dreams of flight        Airplane invented Beneath the only standing member    Monument Of a forest                                    Whole area To the south                                  Monument to the south White stone closest                        First Flight Commemoration Boulder At twelve paces                            Twelve steps From the west side                          Head West Get permission                              National Park To dig out.                                    Casque Thanks. Here is what Sonoran posted: There are several details I don't understand. For examples of very weak links, I'll point out (1) the helmet with horns = Kill Devil Hill, (2) Light = lighthouse light, (3) Imp = Flying object, (4) Water = ... hey, what water? There isn't any water in P3, (5) Cross = Memorial Park (?). Maybe it's just me, but (1), (3), and (5) seem weak, (2) could apply anywhere, and (4) is false. I apologize if I've misunderstood. Here are some comments on your V5 interpretation: Verse 5 Lane Two twenty two              First Flight Airport (what is the link to 222 here?) You'll see an arc of lights      Beacon on top of Monument (why is this an "arc"? There are lights (like the beacon) everywhere ) Weight and roots extended        Monument and plants (okay, I can buy that) Together saved the site          Preservation plan Of granite walls                  Monument construction Wind swept halls                  Wing shape of monument (there aren't any halls here; there is wind everywhere ) Citadel in the night              Base of monument (huh? The monument is hardly a citadel) A wingless bird ascended          Wright Flyer (but the Wright flyer most definitely had wings!) Born of ancient dreams of flight  Airplane invented (okay) Beneath the only standing member  Monument (but why is this the only standing member? makes no sense) Of a forest                      Whole area (??) To the south                      Monument to the south White stone closest              First Flight Commemoration Boulder (okay, but this would apply in many places) At twelve paces                  Twelve steps (okay, but this would apply anywhere) From the west side                Head West (okay, but this would apply anywhere) Get permission                    National Park (okay, but this would apply anywhere) To dig out.                      Casque Notice I am not referring to other possible solves for the Kitty Hawk area. Yes, there are a couple of things in V5 that could be matched tenuously to Kill Devil Hill / Kitty Hawk, but we could do that practically anywhere. For this to be a viable theory, you would have to suggest something more concrete, with clearer connections between (a) V and P and (b) V and location. I'm just not seeing it, Turtle, try as I might. The presence of a white stone is not enough for me to plan a trip with a shovel - you can find things that qualify as "white stones" pretty much everywhere. Granite walls? Everywhere. I suggest that you return to the two definite solutions and see how elegantly and precisely they led to where X marked the spot. When you read those in retrospect, you say "ahhh, of course!" and it all clicks. Not so here.

forest_blight wrote:: [font=courier] Verse 5 Lane Two twenty two              First Flight Airport (what is the link to 222 here?) You'll see an arc of lights Forest, this is a holdover from an erroneous assumption somebody made ages ago. I cant find it now but somebody reported that the runway at First Flight airport was labeled 222. Close but actually the runway is labled 2/20 or in one direction it is runway 2 and in the other direction it is runway 20. but neither way is it actually 222, this was noticed way back when, and disregarded. So Turtle# and sonoran why does first flight = lane 222 in your opinion?

IF YOU PUT A HYPHN IN IT  ... LANE 2- 22  ,I WILL PUT TOGETHER A MORE COMPLETE VERSION WITH CLEARER EXPLAINATIONS AND POST IT

A hyphen won't fix this problem, turtle. The numbers on the First Flight Airstrip are "2" and "20." Either way (2-20 or 20-2), it can't be Two twenty two .

Even if it could be 222 (which in my opinion is a huge stretch)...you arent answering the initial question.  Dont say "go back and read our post" because those are almost as cryptic as BP's puzzles...just lay it out there.  Tell us to go to the west side of the memorial, walk 100 paces just past the tiny pine tree, look left to see the ocean to be sure you are in the right place...and DIG. As I stated in my other post...I am sure that BOOGIEMAN would be happy to dig at your location {not just in such-n-such park...but a precise location} and MALTEDFALCON would be happy to dig in San Francisco. You have claimed to have complete solves (including a specific spot to dig) for these so I give you 2 folks who can dig.  Let's finish this nonsense once and for all.

Kill Devil Hills sounds like a good solution to go into detail. I will try to get that information posted over the next couple days.

Let's not worry about Kill Devil Hill right now Sonoran & Turtle.  Why not post the exact dig spots for the SF and NY casques so MALTEDFALCON & BOOGIEMAN can unearth them.

happy to, mind you I'm not digging in a fenced off, garden that is locked at night. but besides that I am wide open, shovel at the ready.

We will have to either find the casque or have a definate match with regard to image and verse for STL and NO and still have the Stonewall gate verse unused before they will let us into the tea garden. I hope to have the first half of the above done soon.

Unknown: Lane Two twenty two              First Flight Airport (what is the link to 222 here?) Unknown: Beneath the only standing member  Monument (but why is this the only standing member? makes no sense) Looks like I got a chance to post after all. This hotel has public computers. The First Flight airstrip is LANE ONE. (the FIRST flight---geddit?) The contemporary airstrip is LANE TWO.  At one end of this, is the number 20, at the other end, the number 2. So "Lane TWO, Twenty, (and) Two. Lane two, twenty, two. Note that in the verse the numbers are not hyphenated . If you write out the number twenty-two, you should properly hyphenate it. Therefore, I think it's a series, not 22. And I'm the one who oriiginally said this, BTW.  No one, to my knowledge, ever said the number was 222. Sure it does. A forest is a bunch of trees--and there is certainly one to the south of the monument and the area. Definitely a forest. You can see it on satellite pics. The only standing member is the ONLY tree that is still standing from the Wright Brother's time---and it IS there--I found it. It's right next to the visitor's center. It is the only tree that is a "single" tree, and the only tree in the area that isn't in a forest--or in the surrounding woods/forested areas. White stone closest --would be (IMHO) one of the four white stones on the First Flight strip that are closest to this tree. Go twelve paces to the west of this stone and dig. It doesn't get much clearer, IMHO. Wingless bird ascended : KITES, doggone it, not the Wright Flyer!! The flyer had wings--no one can dispute that one no matter how hard they try.  The Wright Brothers studied aeronautics using KITES--which do not have wings.  They did not watch birds (except AFTER they had worked out their ideas--and then only to confirm a few minor details). They flew kites in a field in Dayton Ohio in order to figure out how to make things fly. The field has a big plaque on it stating this. I have a picture of it.

Unknown: Sonoran seemed to be referring to the monument itself as if it were the "only standing member" - that's what I was questioning. A tree, I can buy - no problem.

shecrab wrote:: The First Flight airstrip is LANE ONE. (the FIRST flight---geddit?) The contemporary airstrip is LANE TWO. Wingless bird ascended : KITES, doggone it, not the Wright Flyer!! The flyer had wings--no one can dispute that one no matter how hard they try.  The Wright Brothers studied aeronautics using KITES--which do not have wings. Technically wrong -  The contemporary airstrip is runway 2 because the heading of the runway is 2 degrees  off of north... it has nothing to do with first airstrip being lane 1 runways are named for their headings. The wright brothers indeed studied aeronautics using kites, and their kites were preliminary versions of the wright flyer, most if not all had not zero but two wings. The biplane configuration was designed in their wind tunnel early on and refined by using larger and larger kites of the same design until finally they could actually ride on the kite and control it by bending or warping the wings...  So yes most if not all the kites the Wright brothers used to test aeronautics had wings...

fox wrote:: Let's not worry about Kill Devil Hill right now Sonoran & Turtle.  Why not post the exact dig spots for the SF and NY casques so MALTEDFALCON & BOOGIEMAN can unearth them. We have already posted the solutions for both San Francisco and New York with exact places to dig. The current staff at the Tea Garden would not give us permission. We already asked Boogie if he wanted to dig at the Holley Monument. Although he found the spot compelling and maybe even quite valid he decided to work on his solution first. So I will continue to gather information for Kill Devil Hills especially since this had recent gains with shecrab's work. Can you see the attitude though going into reviewing whatever I post? This is the point I made earlier about not being open minded. Are you going to help and look to understand, or are you going to resist every point every step of the way? History has shown the latter. Something came up yesterday that will greatly limit my free time this week, but I will work to get the information out when possible.

Actually I read your entries very carefully and consider everything you say. You obviously are an intelligent thoughtful person and your ideas show great imagination and out of the box thinking. But when you post your ideas, you post them as definitive solutions, not possible theories, It seems that simply by posting you ideas you think "its a done deal, solved move along." I can speak for the San Francisco hunt better than I can for the others, although I have been on the ground looking in Florida, Washington DC and Minneapolis. I started on this hunt in 1982, I was working in a bookstore in when the book came out and I bought a copy the first day it was released. I have been looking at possible Bay Area solutions now for going on 26/27 years. I carefully considered and dismissed the tea garden long before you posted your thoughts. when you and turtle posted your solution I was thrilled. More than finding the casque myself, I just want someone to find  A San Francisco casque, (if its me, thats great, but I just want it found) I waited eagerly to hear your solution, because you seemed so adamant that you had solved it. When you posted it, I wanted to know right off where I went wrong. So I went line by line through your solution, comparing it to the known solutions for quality and similarities. Then I considered your ideas in the light of personal experience on the ground in Golden Gate park and many many visits to the Tea Garden and just general logic. Each step of the way your logical conclusion falters and stretches. If I point out an inconsistency you either ignore it or obfuscate. You seem to want to take critical examination of your theories as personal affronts. They are not. I think your San Francisco theory is wrong and If you want to present it as a "Solution" I will feel free to shoot holes in it. Outside of wishing you would stop refering to unproven theories as solutions, I have absolutely no problems with you and turtle and your ideas. You might be absolutely correct in another pic/verse theory but the way you present them as obvious facts combined with I think you are patently wrong with p1/v7 tends to taint your opinions

Reading the recent posts of the last couple days has made me rethink searching. It has been like the "vase-face illusion". When someone tells you,"Look at this picture of a vase.", then you are all primed to see a vase and nothing but a vase....Then someone else tells you, "It's two faces."  Are you going to be stubborn and acknowledge only the vase?  Or are you going to look again to see if indeed, there are two faces? Today, I am looking at the "two faces", and it is all because of the exchange of ideas taking place here. Thank you, treasure-hunters...for throwing out your thoughts and visions for the rest of us to study and contemplate.  Byron Preiss would smile to see this forum. AP